Nicolás Madoery presents 'divergent protocols' as a counter-model to standard protocols that converge toward homogenization, arguing that AI and robotics now function as infrastructure (not tools) through which culture becomes 'liquid' and infinitely re-versioned. Drawing on examples like AI-generated Argentine folklore, a dancing folk robot, and his PIACH framework for cultural organizations, he proposes protocols that preserve diversity by naming what is lost, keeping source names, and leaving room for noise rather than optimizing transmission.
0:05 Awesome. Well, that was I that was super good. We’re almost back on schedule here, so I’ll get the the other Nicholas to to get going. Um and then after that we’ll have Jim. So, yeah, right now until the hour, Nicholas Madory on culture and divergent protocols. Um Nicholas, if you’re around. And then we’ll have Jim.
0:50 Yeah. Okay. One minute, I want to put the chat here. Yeah. Come here. Okay, well, thanks for this. I’m happy to be here. And I think I love this possibility to to share with you some new that I’m working now.
1:13 In particular, this is like a experimental process. I am exploring this idea of diversion protocols. Um in particular, I work in the intersection of culture, internet, and technology. Um I develop a record label for 10 years.
1:34 After of this, I worked in digital distribution and music with working with platforms like Spotify or YouTube, etc. And trying to to put the the content of the artists in playlists and and develops a lot of uh musics in in the digital territory. And in my last six years, I I develop futures like a like an studio to to to think um the the impact of the different kind of technologies in the in the cultural ecosystem. Uh I am based in Buenos Aires, but I work from from Latin America. Um one one of point one of my drivers the um drivers is related at how local cultures are transmitted in this context. Um um I go to use the the the concept of culture in different in different acceptions, but in general I go to use to talk about the um a music or a book or our uh our idea or a tradition or something that we can transmit uh between persons.
3:07 Um I started to thinking in in protocols doing my own methodology. Um well, obviously um um protocol institute is an inspiration for for this, but it’s a little of I work in general this kind of process in in in exploring in the first station exploration. Um In the second station in translation, and the last is putting order or try to generate some ideas in in some boxes or containers. In particular with these topics, I am in the in between one and two. Uh I am in a in a stage of exploration. And this is the first time that I go to translate my some of my ideas and and I go to try to be clear in this.
4:04 Yeah, um some some of the of the of the points that we work in this uh in this presentation uh are become to to an article called from stereo to liquid music that I released 1 month ago. Uh now it’s in Spanish, but I go to release in English and I don’t know, but I think in in some weeks. Yeah, um this article has two principal points.
4:40 The first one is I the AI stopped being a tool and become infrastructure. And the second one is the content become liquid. And with the idea to the first point is we don’t decide when in which moment use the AI. The AI is part of everyday platform that you we use in in our day of the day. And the second point is related with this the idea of um when we put a content in the digital territory this content it is is part of different and trainings that we don’t control, but also can be uh one version of for what one part for or or or or the first version. Um a lot of these we can create uh infinite version of this same content.
5:45 Okay. My My big question in related with this topic that that we want to talk today is how do we keep culture diverse when it travels through infrastructure we did not choose? Um this is the the the idea understanding how in particular with AI but now with the robots for that is important this topic for me now um how we can preservate or or create some protocols to protect the the diversity. Um for for that I will to talk about this tension between the idea of the protocols to to converge or to try to homogenize uh some points and versus the idea of try to create uh protocols to uh diverse.
6:48 Uh the summary of of these points the first point is I talk about mediations, the second is about filters. The third point is converge. Um the fourth is infrastructure and the last point is vessels or containers.
7:11 This is I think is can be a little cliche but for me is interesting to to to to put the context or or to talk about context because is is is a natural process but is is not the same. Um because the culture has always traveled through mediations and in the first moment the the firm the the the voice or the body like communication also the print also and the the radio and records, obviously internet in the middle a lot of others mediations, but now we have the AI like a new mediations, but also the the robots how another layer of of mediations between a cultural content and and and the the audiences or the people.
8:13 For that for me is is is important understand this intersection because the AI and robotics is like is is not like is not mobile alone
8:33 of the infrastructure of internet to to to to have the possibility to has impact. I think this this point between cultural content, internet and AI and robotics is is a tension to to think is an space to to create new new protocols today.
9:03 In my case, I started to think about this in in a serious way when I discover like an artist doing folkloric like a traditional rhythms from Argentina 100% with AI or when I show in an event with a lot of a lot of policies showing in an scenery robot dance dancing like a traditional rhythm in the scenario. Um I started and it’s interesting because I know I know this this music or these traditions or this dance and I say, “Okay, this is like a version AI version or a robotic version about this.” Um I say, “Okay, this is good or this is bad.” Or I try to compare it in a human 100% human or this 100% machine.
10:16 But what happened when a person uh enter in in the first time with with a a music or with a cultural tradition uh mediated for for a robot or mediated for AI? In this process, you understand like a this this version of the of the reality. And I think well, this is not a a a This is not a prediction. This is happening now. Um in particular, I think China is is more advanced in this and in how they they they work this uh in a lot of I think this is common for uh for for us, no, when there are a lot of videos about robots dancing like a folkloric China done uh traditional music or or 2 months ago, um with the Olympics games. I don’t know exactly the name and a lot of videos uh with a lot of robots doing sports, but uh
11:43 we consume a lot of slob or or or fails uh with robots crashing or or in a different very bizarre situations.
11:55 And I think in a moment say, “Okay, for me, uh this is one way to to to find or to the culture now. But I don’t know if it is bad or well, it’s it’s not the idea to to put in the in in this in this sense, if not if if it is real or if it is good or not of if it is preserved the diversity or not.
12:34 And obviously, this is entering a in a dopamine culture, no? And I I think this is clear for for us also, no? The the the how we are consuming culture before before of this. Yeah, in a we consume music with a TikTok videos or we consume pictures in scrolling or we consume news with a title of a news. Um and I think uh this is not like a phenomenon isolated phenomenon, if not for that I say is very related the or is very consequent with the internet logic because the content created with AI or the content created with the robot situations are very functional for this dopamine culture. And for that, is very um um create a lot of impact in this process of of of transmissions.
13:38 In this point, uh the systems in general, the systems converge be by design and the idea of the platforms of the the digital territory is related to to a standardize uh to create um to create a resource for the most probable situation. Um in the culture, we are in a moment that uh the the we are losing diversity in the digital environment with this uh logic of the algorithms and platforms. Because the culture lies in indifference. Um obviously the memory, the gesture, the language, the repertoire uh don’t find um necessary the the impact. And the idea in general is create or or communicate or create some a specific uh way to to to transmission.
14:54 And for that, is for me interesting um understand uh the the this uh two two two technologies like two infrastructures. Uh um the AI like an cognitive infrastructure or or layer of infrastructure and the robotics like an a material part. To to to start to to think how we can create mechanism to to put in order for us this. Um this year I I I read a lot about fiction related with with robots and it’s interesting how we are in a parallel moment. Um you read a book and in this moment we have a a robot trying to doing these kind of things. And how we can No, in particular this point the the the we have a lot of robots simulating pets.
16:03 Um it’s one of it’s it’s the way to have some cameras in your in your home or and and continue with a lot of things and and we don’t have a specific protocol for for this kind of situation, but it’s very cute like a little dog robotic dog. I don’t know and and and I think it’s a moment to think in in this kind of things and it’s a way to to to transmission also.
16:32 Um in particular well, there are really interesting authors from Argentina called Michel Nieva. He he write about science fiction and and and theory about how the the technology impact in Latin America. Um he start to talk how uh create a like a dystopia about gauchos robots. The gaucho is like a kind of character from the folklore in Argentina. And I think it’s very interesting because when we show uh one like for example in the in the World Cup every every particular the the Argentinian I say my my vision but in a lot of country from Latin America in in a party after or before the the the the game a lot of people dance with the robots and with the with the the t-shirt and the and the clothes related with the country and I think it’s a part to to to to put or to the robot in a in a in a cultural or in a folkloric situation.
18:00 And also and I think this is a a a a very interesting part is what happened with this idea of of the of the transmission of and I don’t know how I say in English this but how creations or or religions. And this is this book Clara and the Sun is very interesting because talk about how the robots can can believe you in some things and it’s a novel and it’s very very it’s great but one year ago or no sorry this year in Seoul and it was this video it was very funny very interesting because show a robots starting to be a priest.
19:04 And I I have a lot of question related of this why I I don’t if it’s only like a communication and an action of to communicate this and and to put the the Buddhist in a in a conversation or in the media or or they are some ideas about how the robots can transmit or be part of this transmission in a new area now.
19:40 For that I think we are debating a lot about technical and legal in in in this in these infrastructures but they are a lot to debate in the cultural thing because how I say I don’t have an answer this thing but I am I am showing a lot of different visions related of how the [clears throat] these technologies are enter in our day or day or in our communication.
20:18 Um in in this point I think this this idea of diversion protocols need to be with we need to create mechanisms to to preserve these the different kind of cultures in the different parts of the of the world.
20:42 And one one thing that I show a lot and I think an important point before to think or to talk about the specific in protocols is how we can need to move one new new stage with technology in particular with AI when when we in the different courses that we create or in different consultancy that we we we work. Uh we show a lot that we are in in at least in in in Latin America, but the enterprises are in in a private use in an intimate use of the technology. And for this station or for this moment, we need to create like a collective use and protocolize the collective use of the technology. And think together how we machine the the the possible or the the new um the new way to adoption or to to transmit uh these these uses.
21:48 For this, we think I think in in in this brainstorming, how we can create new new new containers, new vessels to to put the culture or to put the different kind of content in in a spaces to to sustain, to to preserve, and to help to to maintain to to be to stage in a secure place at the at the culture.
22:43 I want to continue to to be more clear. Um And also um the definition of co-creation is very is very necessary for this because I think in in this idea of work with with this layer of infrastructure with AI and with robots, how we can define the the the it if it this cultural content is created for a human or a machine or in which sense or in which point is a creation or co-creation or a substitution. And the reciprocity, the responsibility, and the permanence of the of the people that work with with this and and the the understanding of of this tension, I think is fundamental to to this new new new layer. Um and the challenge is incorporate in the society and in the different in the institutions, in the enterprises, in the different kind of project related with the with the culture and and not necessarily this kind of protocols uh to trying to keep the source name the laws preserve the local keys leave a room for noise and think in our particular uh differentiation and how you think on this different that the people from other part and how we can think in the diversity of the protocols related with the context to use or to work with the with some cultural content in in related with the AI and and with the robotics.
25:02 Obviously, this is divided in the macro and in the micro. In the macro is related with the plural formats or translatable sources and value returns to origin and this is and these are debates for a long term.
25:22 But, in the micro, we can start now to think in or to test in how we decide before automating and how we can we use this content or understand in the specific and this is not only for the cultural content. I think it’s in general um what we are delegating now and how we sustain the human zone and if we generate content and we we we share content, how um we uh sustain the the idea of of diversity.
26:06 For that, I believe in this that the protocols to keep culture diverse and diversion protocols can help can help us preserve diversity and think together about how culture enters the new territory, digital, semantic, and robotic.
26:55 Um yeah, nice job and um yeah, people have questions should feel them. I noticed that the Jane um noted that he read a book um about amusing amusing ourselves to death, which is kind of scary thought.
27:21 Thank you for this talk, Nick. Actually, I’m very impressed and thank you for bringing up this topic as well. Actually, it’s very um someone who crosses multiple cultures and languages. I face this Yes. And I see this um My my question is very specific on that part where you um had a slide on keeping the source, naming the loss. Um and a few other steps. So, is have you guys like are you like in the process of uh listing them or compiling that loss because I think um it’s very important and sometimes you might not have words for that in English and I feel this is my opinion that we should not be trying to translate to the next nearest word, but retain that original word and have a meeting in English. For example, the word jungle is not native to English. It was brought from India because the Britishers uh people in UK never saw a jungle before they came to US. So, they had to use a new term for it. So, similarly when we are make when we are naming the loss, are we in the process of like compiling that loss because otherwise in like a not even a generation, in a few years you have already lost it.
28:49 I don’t know if I understand, but I In our case that we are doing is elevating projects in Latin America that we are working in this sense. For example, they are one project called Latam Capital and it’s a LLM created for Senya, the center of artificial intelligence to Chile. And it’s interesting because it’s a model training with 100% of data from Latin America.
29:27 And for that, for example, we are trying to do some the the exercise to to comparate to to put in comparate some answers related with some LLMs to and related with the specific topics or or or ideas in in a cultural way. And other example is we are elevating how Suno, the audio generative platform Suno creates Argentinian folklore and and some other rhythms. And we are following if it is with the different models they are training better or not this this and for example it’s it’s it’s very fine the line because for example, in Suno you use you you write I want to chacarera. It’s a local rhythm.
30:29 And the result is a samba. Samba is a similar is a kind of chacarera, but it’s not the same. And and and this is one of of of of case interesting case because they train and the data I don’t know how they put them in the data of of how they train sooner train the model with the Argentinian folklore but in the middle of this we lost our rhythm. Um and this is an example like a more with AI or when you listen an AI an artist and say, “Okay, this can be is okay, this is a folkloric but uh is is not with the noise that we have in our local. It’s like a clean, it’s more like a pop, it’s more or Andean but it it’s we are finding details. This is a point like more in research. But with organizations or with projects, the idea is try to uh help us with with protocols to to put in order or to protect the the content.
31:39 To say, “Okay, how how for example, we worked with some like a public institutions. Uh they protect um some some kind of content and how I can protect this how they can use the AI or for example, if they need to create like a local training to to use um to detect AI or to detect that if others use use uh his content in in a model and in this moment we are experimenting and also in a basic way a lot of organization need to debate about this and I think it’s it’s it’s a new cultural organization in in in a big way. Um you need to understand the the importance of the power of of your content and how you say I want to protect this. I want to understand this and I want to create protocols to to to sustain in a long time my my creation and diversity of
32:55 Yeah, thank you. Yeah, that’s what I was asking like if you’re already doing that you’re already comparing that. So I was saying that once you have a list of that what was missed, then it’s always easy for the next iteration of the model or the protocols to make sure that these things are not missed.
33:14 Also, okay, awesome. Um, thank you Nicholas. Really good to see you.
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